Q&A with Maurice Harker 7/30/15

Worth Large Group Notes July 30, 2015

Q: Understand I’m not a man-trainer. If my husband messes up, but says he is re-committed, I want to know or be reassured of his recommitment.  His response is you aren’t my trainer – is he copping out?
A: Here’s an analogy used in training men: If you are a business person in twin towers in NY after 9/11, and a construction person says, “I’d like to build a new tower and have you in it.”  “Business person says – I need to know that it will be safe.” “Construction person says, none of your business.”  OR Columbus is excited to take you to promised land, but last time his boat sunk with you in it.  You ask to have him walk you through how new boat is different from last time. Response is, not going to happen. 
Correct response is then, when you are willing to show me your new corrections, and new improvements, then I can be safe to trust you.  At sometime before I invest in this, I need to see answers. 

Q: If he says, wife trying to do program for him or be his man trainer – how to respond?
A: No, I just need information, because I need to know what is different. “Well just jump in and we will find out if it will sink or not” is not a safe way to make a woman feel safe or secure.  If at 1 or 2 on chemical spill level, then he isn’t there yet. 
Q: So what do I do, if he’s up on the chemical scale?
A: Don’t engage – respond “you need more time with your man trainers and you aren’t ready for this conversation. Hope you find solutions soon” – they won’t handle it well otherwise anyway.  Maintain dignity, and withdraw to safe distance.  If he is out of whack, there’s no way to have an edifying conversation – there’s no way to win.

Q: Found out about relapse, should I wait for him to come clean? He knows I know he lied, but he’s not sure about what.
A: Use term lie less often, but use “misrepresent truth” as it includes withholding information, or slight distortions, or that I didn’t hear truth clearly.  Calling him out is a little too strong. Let him know you are aware, and let it float.  “I hope someday you will feel comfortable to talk it through with me”.  When guy feels guilty, he isn’t sure which thing he should be confessing to, so sometimes it is useful to get more information.  “You have option to tell me about all of the times you are hiding things from me”.  There are healthy reasons why guys don’t share, like when they leave battle ground and don’t want to share gory details, but when a woman is asking questions, and acting as if she can handle it. It is then ladies’ job to handle it with dignity.  If needed, be sad or angry when it is time, but do it as if you were videotaping, as you would do for a training video for your daughters. 
Q: Found information on accident.  This one he didn’t disclose.  Later on, he fully disclosed a later relapse.  There are consequences involved if he shares within certain boundaries.  Makes question the validity of his progress, and validity of later disclosure.  Afraid that there is more. Is it gut, is it Satan?
A: (Claried that all of this happened prior to joining Men of Moroni.)  When a man is learning something, possibly could do better now than before.  First, share thoughts and feelings when he gets home, but don’t talk in way to convince him, but rather weather ping, just to check the temperature.  Another lady here found after spouse was away, he improved and his return changed things very quickly. She was ready to go Pioneer Woman mode, but he surprised her by getting better while being away.  Recommend don’t sweep under carpet, leave in place to talk about, but check his state of mind first to see if he is ready for productive conversation. If his interaction isn’t in a good place, then it won’t be useful to speak about at this time, and it will cause more hurt and frustration. 
Men of Moroni disclosure training includes journal, and place to write letters to wives.  Men are nervous about disclosing close calls, different pieces etc. where the woman can read when it is healthy for her to do so.  In his journal, he tells truth 100%, but it doesn’t mean you read 100% of those battles. Satan will throw things into a man’s head – inappropriate and disrespectful things which are designed to crush him and mess him up. If woman hears these things, it will be very painful to hear. Just read first few, and last few lines. If they are doing it right, middle is more honest than you want to hear, and may scar you. It may give you more work to get junk out of your head. Most important part are last three lines…where he’s at when he comes home from the battle. If still unstable, then keep distance until he has found a very strong place to stand.  When he knows he is writing in a place where she will read it, he can practice full disclosure and she can read when she is in a safe place, and choose more dignified response in regards to reaction.

Discussion of use of words, boundaries and consequences. Both words have inaccuracies. Boundaries means we can put up wall and make sure others don’t cross.  People WILL cross back and forth over a boundary.  A consequence is a “mother” type scenario.  Term boundary should be changed to “line in the sand”.   Example: “If you cross this line, then I will have a response to it.”  Not a consequence because it implies punishment.  It is Not a woman’s place to punish, but God’s place.  But you have a right to respond in a way as it deals with safety or protection. 
Jennifer Clarified: “In WORTH, we address it as “how do I create safety for myself and my children?”

If a man is losing battle in your home, using home computer – if behavior endangers you or children, you will need to have significant responses to behavior.  Don’t use word “I’m creating boundary” which implies that I am trying to control you.  Use IF/THEN statements.  “If you do this…., then I will respond….” If a man continues to repeat unsafe, scary behavior, then withdraw far enough away that his behavior does not hurt you or your children. 
It is difficult to change own behavior, and even harder to change someone else’s.

Q:  I have withdrawn to my safe distance. My husband is now saying he is back in the game, telling me about all of the holes he is fixing. I’m not thinking about returning anytime soon, but is it done by case by case, or is there a recommended time period prior to returning?
A:  This husband in particular has had enough training or access to training to get it right.  When heart and spirit and intuition say, “he is getting it right” – don’t do a ton of calculation, just when it is consistent (or inconsistent roller coaster changes) go ahead. 
Q:  This could be recovery for 60 days, then up and down again. 
A: If gold miner has been digging for gold and it takes 7 days to find gold.  How many days will he dig before he gives up, and mine proves empty?  Usually another 50% before giving up.  There is difficulty in being a woman thinking, “if I just dig for one more day, or am patient, perhaps he will become awesome”. 
One of most agonizing processes, to watch woman make that decision. Like watching someone on life support, and deciding to pull plug the day before something is discovered that would save their lives.  There are plenty of stories about what it feels like, and when you know it is time to let it die.  As long as you don’t have clarity to fully invest or abandon ship, you are in a wagon with few resources, and you will be in pain every day of it.  Try to make good soup out of shoe leather, and fires from buffalo dung, and sing primary songs as you go.  (This is where women swear at Maurice because it doesn’t make better).

Q: Afraid to talk to husband when things are good, because afraid it will return.  How do I do this?
A:  This is babysitting husband’s brain and extremely sad. We demand that men rise up, and become strong, because you shouldn’t have to carry around his brain around afraid to jar it.  This indicates that he isn’t in recovery, it is just quiet.
If he is doing well he will say, “Woman, come here, I want to hear everything you are thinking and feeling, and with a notebook and smile on his face, he will take notes.” When you say marriage therapy, he will be so excited, and can handle everything and anything. He may not like it, but will sit next to you and hold your hand and inspire everyone with his awesomeness.  He would have mentality of a great waiter - solicitious.  That’s where his head should be.  You have to stay in pioneer woman mode so you don’t get hurt while he is putting his pieces together. 

Q:  How to figure out balance between directing him to man trainers, vs. mothering, instead of being his wife.  “I don’t want to be man trainer, but he needs to go there…”
A:  Jennifer response: Man trainer, line in sand. “I can’t tolerate this behavior, it isn’t safe for me. I need this_____ to happen so that I can feel safe” is different than being a man trainer, which is, “you can do this, it would be a good idea, and would be really helpful for you, and help you in many different areas”.  Fine line between I can’t do this anymore vs. being man trainer. 
Effective phrases to use: “Husband, based on my observations, you still need to learn a few things, and may have made excellent progress, and I’m glad you have other men to go to. Please take your struggles to the other men, and share with them, and see what they can teach you about it.  Because things aren’t there yet, (“tell me what I’m doing wrong?”) if he has an attitude of edification (some of these core principles come from Maurice’s own marriage. Ten years ago, with notebook in hand, his wife was trying to explain it to him. She stopped – “you are Maurice, and you know how to get revelation.  God will explain to you things I cannot explain, because I’m going to share as a woman, and it probably won’t make sense to you.  But if you take your struggles to God, he will tell you what you need to know”.  God is the primary man trainer, prophets, Men of Moroni etc. other man trainers). If you are frustrated because I’m still scared or not relaxing in your presence, please take your frustrations to the man trainers, and they will help you.”  A version of pride is to think that your case is so different that no one else will understand it.  It is a pattern repeated over and over again. 

Q: How to keep from feeling you are mothering him? 
A: If you are hoping to say it just right, you are mothering.
Jennifer: When you really want a man trainer to take over, is it because “I want him to change and learn this stuff so badly, but if I can’t, then I will send him over here, so that they can make him change?”  Even man trainers can’t make him change, if he isn’t ready to.  Make sure your sanity isn’t based on him changing.  Purpose of Worth is to prepare women – for whether he does change, or whether he doesn’t change. 
A man’s project to work on is becoming the patriarch of the home.  Unfortunately, women may need two different life plans – projects working on each day, for staying or leaving.

Q:  How do you set boundaries without pushing them into hiding and secrecy? 
Maurice rephrased question: How can I behave in such a way that I can make sure that another person behaves in such a way?
A:  JS quote…Teach them correct principles, and let them govern themselves.
You don’t choose your behavior because you are wanting him to respond in certain way. 
Don’t use reaction based behaviors.  This is why it is so important for women to have time away. We want to do brother of Jared thing at some point, but want to empty brain, with reading etc to clear head and let wisdom into brain before we start to ask questions.  So before thinking about concerns or questions, let true principles flow into your mind before you start asking questions.  As Maurice spends listening or reading, the correct principles begin to come to mind re: what to say, how to react, or what to do.  As correct principles, they are not based on how someone will respond.  Prophets don’t shy away so that it doesn’t make people mad. Christ stood by truth.  Women need to do same thing. 
Whether a man chooses hiding and secrecy is up to them.  A man in full recovery sounds like: As a woman starts to draw line in sand (previously known as boundaries), a man should notice before anything is even said.  Then, “What’s on your mind, in your heart, what’s going on?” asked with sincere inquiry, without being challenging.  If he knows something difficult is coming, he should use duct tape, tape self down, and be in superman mode…and only say “let me see if I understand what you are saying,” and clarify.  Then takes notebook, takes to God, or man trainers.  “Thanks for showing me leak in boat, I’m going to go to God to figure out plan. Let me know if you see a difference in a week.”
If man wants privacy, then he shouldn’t expect to get into a woman’s private parts.
Jennifer: It takes working recovery. It is information if they aren’t doing it. It does work when they are working recovery.

Kara has experience with husband in both modes – recovery, and non-recovery.
Q to Kara: What to watch for? She has seen him go back and forth.  Before they get it right all of the time, they may only get it right some of the time.
A: Kara: When started Men of Moroni, husband thought it was dumbest thing ever. Kara was wife that made appts. guided him etc.  When stopped doing this, and completely withdrew, he started doing on his own and changing.  When he is doing it right – she is not sure if it is real…and may need a sledgehammer to see if foundation is real.  Last night asked “is this how you really feel, did I get this right? I think this is so traumatizing because women are taught that it should be beautiful and pure, and it makes them question who they are, and if everything they’ve been taught is real”  Just him coming and asking this, and apologizing for ever making me feel this way.  My husband who never cared about my feelings, is now trying to understand me as a woman and apologizing. Men of Moroni going every week, doing man training power goals, he lived downstairs, I lived upstairs.  I could sense difference in him through conversations, and took several months before inviting him back up the stairs. 

Maurice: We are telling men they are the greatest ones of this generation. Women thinking this isn’t very good.  Men think – “why are expectations so high? Why can’t I be mediocre sometimes?”  How coach works with hs. athlete, vs. professional.  My wife would say, “cool good job, going to be awesome when you can pole vault super high…it helps keep me driven to learn about being patriarch. You’ve made great progress. I’m so excited to see you when you can get there.” 
Kara: One of most poignant conversations we’ve ever had was; “I know you are capable of being better man. It is in there. Go find trainers, and find it.”  Went hands off, and he found it.
Maurice: Ladies, please document and record tone and style of this.  It pushes men off fence. Some collapse and fall apart, but most men will rise up to it.  I was under impression you didn’t believe in me.  When wife said that to me, it is seared in me.
Jenn adds: This isn’t an argument, “I just want you to know this.”  Ends it there.

Maurice: Mom was mother of 9 boys, as more kids showed up, we would run to mom with our problems, but during teen years, she would say “You are a smart boy, you can figure it out yourself”. She said 1,000 times because she was trying to take care of other things.  Imagine saying that to your husband – you are smart, you will figure it out, you know where the man trainers are.  “Can we spend time in bedroom tonight?”  “Probably not”. “Why not?” “You are a smart guy, you will figure it out”.  

Q: What if husband never asks those questions, ever. Poor communication.  Is it common for men to realize how women feel easily?  Is it tough to get inside of woman’s heart?
A:  Women need to find how to maintain happiness in the meantime.  Use things like “I have confidence you can continue to learn.  It looks like you haven’t learned how to talk or explore with me, but I think you can figure it out.”  Some men are gun shy.  Reassure that he isn’t doing because he doesn’t have interest, more he is unsure, and so he flinches and retreats.  It isn’t because of lack of caring, but lack of skill.  Encourage to keep pioneer woman skills strong, but when he tries, note good effort, “I hope you’ll keep getting better at it”

Do not apologize for anything unless you feel spiritually inspired to do so. If you do it, hoping he will respond, then it is reaction based thinking.  Healthy relationship like triangle of him, her, God with a safety line for her incase her husband gets weird. 
Husband needs to choose behavior on correct principles.  It is nice if woman handles herself perfectly.  We train men like rock climbers. If he is anchored to God tight, and woman is swinging all over place, and unpredictable.  Men say, “it would be easier if she is stable,” get over, because goal is to be stable no matter what she is doing.  It is always easier if one is doing things right.  Get better for your sake, but not for him.  Apologize if you sincerely feel that you’ve done something wrong.  Apologize if woman thinks she has done something wrong, and feels inspired, but don’t apologize because it makes easier for him.

Kara: Read book by Wendy Watson Nielsen – part about unrighteous dominion.  Recognized that this was attempt to make his situation mine.  Rather than just be happy with self, I tried to micromanage everything in his life, and shut him down as a man, and he couldn’t do anything for himself, it crippled him.  Spirit confirmed to her that she needed to step away and let him be a man and own his own stuff.  It was very freeing, and very healing for him, allowing him to see she was taking ownership of her actions. 
Maurice: He didn’t respond well because she apologized, but it was because of his own work.  Sometimes men don’t have an edifying response. 

Q: Sleeping in separate rooms.  At times he goes into victim mode. Why would he want to work hard, when he thinks he has lost me, how do I get out of reactive mode?
Want to be more authentic, don’t want to just let him in and forgive without seeing progress or change.
A: Blunt: it drives you nuts when man objectifies you. You need to make sure you aren’t objectifying him. What do you think he does when he is on his own? When he goes to mtn, or on a journey without a woman presence, he might just be inspired to do something right. When he is alone without a woman, he could call up God and be inspired. 
Typical man in mtn conversation as follows: Going to talk about wife and marriage. how messed up she is, ready for conversation with God.  Goes in and begins…God lets him vent, then says, “So, you are having a hard time with my daughter. And she’s difficult for you to live with. Today we aren’t going to talk about your wife, but rather, my daughter.”  It changes the conversation.  As any father would say, “if you don’t like her, then go away.” I don’t have need for my daughter to become awesome for you. She is awesome as she is, and for me.  That usually stops guy – normal conversation with man and God.  Just go away.
Wait…can we talk about how to fix your daughter?  Here’s a paper, write down everything wrong with her, until you feel stupid.  Stupid conversation is: “My happiness is my priority, please change your daughter so that my life is convenient, and I don’t have to change, but she does.”   Most men have to spend time in woodshed…lets talk this through first.  Ether 12:27 – if men come unto me. I will show weakness.  Women don’t need to spell out in detail what is wrong with man.  Don’t want to be near you, you go figure it out.  Let God do His work.  If man not making effort to connect with God, then be a little nervous.  But, you have to do something, because I can’t stay near you if you aren’t going to at least try that.  Then if he isn’t ready to be in your presence then you should be on the phone with God. 
Can’t base your actions on how he is going to react.  It isn’t my purpose in life to make you feel like some woman likes you.  You should be psychologically stable before inviting someone else into your life.  Who took care of you before you got a wife? Or on mission, or during college? It is not woman’s job to reassure him.  Reassurance should come after he behaves well.  In circle of life, man should lead with preside, provide, protect.  Even 14 year old at a stake dance who leaves group and steps out to invite girl to dance. She can turn her shoulder and smile to nurture.  Don’t measure nurturing.  Men learn from a woman’s reaction. Don’t withhold nurturing if he behaves well.  Not necessarily bedroom, but appropriate – smile, pat on the shoulder.

Q: My husband is not in recovery, in process of divorce. In re: apologizing, he continues to try and engage so that he feels better. As in sending long text about forgiveness, and then stating she has turned him into liar, narcissist, addict etc.  How do I not be affected by this, and not respond?
A: First if he talks that way, completely support divorcing him.  Simple solution is to mediator who can facilitate communication regarding child. Take information transfer it, and keep it at non-emotional, practical level.  If you are a woman who feels things, you will react to emotional abuse.  Is there a mediator for such communication? Recommend a man as they won’t be as affected.  Husband will find it pointless to rant to brother or father or brother in law who gets it.  Find someone to transfer clear information without the emotions.  Also use mediator for child exchanges.  A little complicated, but possibly worth it in such a case.  
Q: When disengage, he becomes more abusive and aggressive trying to solicit engagement.
A: If keeps happening, always copy and paste abusive messages into a document.  Classified as abuse, and court can order protective or non-contact order.  Just so he can’t talk to you directly so that all communication has to go through third party.  Time to implement that.

Q: Ever a time when it is appropriate for a woman to teach a man? Thought about role of woman as a nurturer – teaching is part of that.
A: Yes, but generally not in the early stages.  “If he isn’t taking you seriously, don’t talk”
Maurice can sit across from wife, and be ready to learn. Because of communication errors, Satan’s tetris, etc.  M. has noticed increase in frequency of attacks from Satan when wife is around is astounding. She is “flinchy” around M. because when he is in a bad zone, he can be “unpleasant”.  When a man is receiving info in edifying way – love for woman to teach.  Man can’t tell what a woman is experiencing or thinking. Man trainers have learned to listen and understand a little more.  General Authorities have listened, - God gets it, Holy Ghost gets it, they understand women.  Men train men how to listen to women in edifying way.
Yes, in end, some of the fine tuning has to be done by a woman.
Men need polishing and smoothing by women.

Q: How do I handle betrayal? I don’t care or want to know about more disclosure, but don’t want husband carrying around all of the other stuff that hasn’t been disclosed.
A:  Personal inventory – step four is more of a purpose to relieve and disclose all to God.  Rather than him wanting to tell something he didn’t tell about 4 years ago. Stop skip to end, see how it ends.  He acknowledged something undisclosed, then see how he ended it. 
Q: Do I ask for disclosure or wait for it to come out on own.
A: Wait.
Q: How do I not read junk in the middle?
Jennifer – some women need to handle it and need to know.  Some women need so that they can heal and move forward.  Not always clear cut, don’t read it.  With man journals, talking about their battles – this happened, and this is what I did, or realized.  It gives insight to what he is doing, what his plan of action is. 
A: Make sure not reading from curiosity. Is it going to make anything better if I know more information? It is case by case. Always stop, retreat, and then determine why you would continue reading, and ask, do I want this in my head and will I be able to get it out?
Q: Husband is foggy, doesn’t get it. Side jobs, he is in apartments alone with women. Discussing how I don’t want him with single women alone doing side jobs. He doesn’t connect the dots, and understand why it would trigger that it would be hard for me.  Is it helpful to say you are idiot, how do you not see this?
A: Boundary discussion from earlier.  “If you choose to do that…then I will have to react this way.  I will have to retreat farther away because of the lack of safety it creates for me.”  Use if then statements. 

Men of Moroni doesn’t teach marriage repair.  Use Marriage Repair classes. Maintain distance until he figures it out.  “Smart boy, you’ll figure it out – with sincerity, integrity, honesty.”  Good idea to have a trusted friend preview journal if concerned about what it contains – be discerning about who you allow to read a husband’s writing.  If you are really scared, then use your therapist to preview to help you not be traumatized. 
You need to ask yourself, Is this something I need to know? Check out your own feelings when you begin to read it. If you are having trauma, you don't have to read it. You can skip to the bottom to see where he is at now, or what he did about it without having graphic details in your head. It's a personal decision on how much you can handle.

Q: To get to marriage repair workshop, SofHoutreach@gmail.com 

Q: Best to do both Men of Moroni and marriage workshops simultaneous.  $45 a week +3 hours of training a week is a huge value for the $.