Worth Large Group Notes July 30, 2015
Q: Understand I’m not a man-trainer. If my husband messes
up, but says he is re-committed, I want to know or be reassured of his
recommitment. His response is you
aren’t my trainer – is he copping out?
A: Here’s an analogy used in training men: If you are a
business person in twin towers in NY after 9/11, and a construction person
says, “I’d like to build a new tower and have you in it.” “Business person says – I need to know that
it will be safe.” “Construction person says, none of your business.” OR Columbus is excited to take you to
promised land, but last time his boat sunk with you in it. You ask to have him walk you through how new
boat is different from last time. Response is, not going to happen.
Correct response is then, when you
are willing to show me your new corrections, and new improvements, then I can
be safe to trust you. At sometime
before I invest in this, I need to see answers.
Q: If he says, wife trying to do program for him or be his
man trainer – how to respond?
A: No, I just need information, because I need to know what
is different. “Well just jump in and we will find out if it will sink or not”
is not a safe way to make a woman feel safe or secure. If at 1 or 2 on chemical spill level, then
he isn’t there yet.
Q: So what do I do, if he’s up on the chemical scale?
A: Don’t engage – respond “you need more time with your man
trainers and you aren’t ready for this conversation. Hope you find solutions
soon” – they won’t handle it well otherwise anyway. Maintain dignity, and withdraw to safe distance. If he is out of whack, there’s no way to
have an edifying conversation – there’s no way to win.
Q: Found out about relapse, should I wait for him to come
clean? He knows I know he lied, but he’s not sure about what.
A: Use term lie less often, but use “misrepresent truth” as
it includes withholding information, or slight distortions, or that I didn’t
hear truth clearly. Calling him out is
a little too strong. Let him know you are aware, and let it float. “I hope someday you will feel comfortable to
talk it through with me”. When guy
feels guilty, he isn’t sure which thing he should be confessing to, so sometimes
it is useful to get more information.
“You have option to tell me about all of the times you are hiding things
from me”. There are healthy reasons why
guys don’t share, like when they leave battle ground and don’t want to share
gory details, but when a woman is asking questions, and acting as if she can
handle it. It is then ladies’ job to handle it with dignity. If needed, be sad or angry when it is time,
but do it as if you were videotaping, as you would do for a training video for
your daughters.
Q: Found information on accident. This one he didn’t disclose.
Later on, he fully disclosed a later relapse. There are consequences involved if he shares within certain
boundaries. Makes question the validity
of his progress, and validity of later disclosure. Afraid that there is more. Is it gut, is it Satan?
A: (Claried that all of this happened prior to joining Men
of Moroni.) When a man is learning
something, possibly could do better now than before. First, share thoughts and feelings when he gets home, but don’t
talk in way to convince him, but rather weather ping, just to check the
temperature. Another lady here found
after spouse was away, he improved and his return changed things very quickly.
She was ready to go Pioneer Woman mode, but he surprised her by getting better
while being away. Recommend don’t sweep
under carpet, leave in place to talk about, but check his state of mind first
to see if he is ready for productive conversation. If his interaction isn’t in
a good place, then it won’t be useful to speak about at this time, and it will
cause more hurt and frustration.
Men of Moroni disclosure training includes journal, and
place to write letters to wives. Men
are nervous about disclosing close calls, different pieces etc. where the woman
can read when it is healthy for her to do so.
In his journal, he tells truth 100%, but it doesn’t mean you read 100%
of those battles. Satan will throw things into a man’s head – inappropriate and
disrespectful things which are designed to crush him and mess him up. If woman
hears these things, it will be very painful to hear. Just read first few, and
last few lines. If they are doing it right, middle is more honest than you want
to hear, and may scar you. It may give you more work to get junk out of your
head. Most important part are last three lines…where he’s at when he comes home
from the battle. If still unstable, then keep distance until he has found a
very strong place to stand. When he
knows he is writing in a place where she will read it, he can practice full
disclosure and she can read when she is in a safe place, and choose more
dignified response in regards to reaction.
Discussion of use of words, boundaries and consequences.
Both words have inaccuracies. Boundaries means we can put up wall and make sure
others don’t cross. People WILL cross
back and forth over a boundary. A
consequence is a “mother” type scenario.
Term boundary should be changed to “line in the sand”. Example: “If you cross this line, then I
will have a response to it.” Not a
consequence because it implies punishment.
It is Not a woman’s place to punish, but God’s place. But you have a right to respond in a way as
it deals with safety or protection.
Jennifer Clarified: “In WORTH, we address it as “how do I
create safety for myself and my children?”
If a man is losing battle in your home, using home computer
– if behavior endangers you or children, you will need to have significant
responses to behavior. Don’t use word
“I’m creating boundary” which implies that I am trying to control you. Use IF/THEN statements. “If you do this…., then I will respond….” If
a man continues to repeat unsafe, scary behavior, then withdraw far enough away
that his behavior does not hurt you or your children.
It is difficult to change own behavior, and even harder to
change someone else’s.
Q: I have withdrawn
to my safe distance. My husband is now saying he is back in the game, telling
me about all of the holes he is fixing. I’m not thinking about returning
anytime soon, but is it done by case by case, or is there a recommended time
period prior to returning?
A: This husband in
particular has had enough training or access to training to get it right. When heart and spirit and intuition say, “he
is getting it right” – don’t do a ton of calculation, just when it is
consistent (or inconsistent roller coaster changes) go ahead.
Q: This could be
recovery for 60 days, then up and down again.
A: If gold miner has been digging for gold and it takes 7 days to find gold. How many days will he dig before he gives up, and mine proves empty? Usually another 50% before giving up. There is difficulty in being a woman thinking, “if I just dig for one more day, or am patient, perhaps he will become awesome”.
A: If gold miner has been digging for gold and it takes 7 days to find gold. How many days will he dig before he gives up, and mine proves empty? Usually another 50% before giving up. There is difficulty in being a woman thinking, “if I just dig for one more day, or am patient, perhaps he will become awesome”.
One of most agonizing processes, to watch woman make that
decision. Like watching someone on life support, and deciding to pull plug the
day before something is discovered that would save their lives. There are plenty of stories about what it
feels like, and when you know it is time to let it die. As long as you don’t have clarity to fully
invest or abandon ship, you are in a wagon with few resources, and you will be
in pain every day of it. Try to make
good soup out of shoe leather, and fires from buffalo dung, and sing primary
songs as you go. (This is where women
swear at Maurice because it doesn’t make better).
Q: Afraid to talk to husband when things are good, because
afraid it will return. How do I do
this?
A: This is
babysitting husband’s brain and extremely sad. We demand that men rise up, and
become strong, because you shouldn’t have to carry around his brain around
afraid to jar it. This indicates that
he isn’t in recovery, it is just quiet.
If he is doing well he will say, “Woman, come here, I want
to hear everything you are thinking and feeling, and with a notebook and smile
on his face, he will take notes.” When you say marriage therapy, he will be so
excited, and can handle everything and anything. He may not like it, but will
sit next to you and hold your hand and inspire everyone with his
awesomeness. He would have mentality of
a great waiter - solicitious. That’s
where his head should be. You have to
stay in pioneer woman mode so you don’t get hurt while he is putting his pieces
together.
Q: How to figure out
balance between directing him to man trainers, vs. mothering, instead of being
his wife. “I don’t want to be man
trainer, but he needs to go there…”
A: Jennifer
response: Man trainer, line in sand. “I can’t tolerate this behavior, it isn’t
safe for me. I need this_____ to happen so that I can feel safe” is different
than being a man trainer, which is, “you can do this, it would be a good idea,
and would be really helpful for you, and help you in many different
areas”. Fine line between I can’t do
this anymore vs. being man trainer.
Effective phrases to use: “Husband, based on my
observations, you still need to learn a few things, and may have made excellent
progress, and I’m glad you have other men to go to. Please take your struggles
to the other men, and share with them, and see what they can teach you about
it. Because things aren’t there yet,
(“tell me what I’m doing wrong?”) if he has an attitude of edification (some of
these core principles come from Maurice’s own marriage. Ten years ago, with
notebook in hand, his wife was trying to explain it to him. She stopped – “you
are Maurice, and you know how to get revelation. God will explain to you things I cannot explain, because I’m
going to share as a woman, and it probably won’t make sense to you. But if you take your struggles to God, he
will tell you what you need to know”.
God is the primary man trainer, prophets, Men of Moroni etc. other man
trainers). If you are frustrated because I’m still scared or not relaxing in
your presence, please take your frustrations to the man trainers, and they will
help you.” A version of pride is to
think that your case is so different that no one else will understand it. It is a pattern repeated over and over
again.
Q: How to keep from feeling you are mothering him?
A: If you are hoping to say it just right, you are
mothering.
Jennifer: When you really want a man trainer to take over,
is it because “I want him to change and learn this stuff so badly, but if I
can’t, then I will send him over here, so that they can make him change?” Even man trainers can’t make him change, if
he isn’t ready to. Make sure your
sanity isn’t based on him changing.
Purpose of Worth is to prepare women – for whether he does change, or
whether he doesn’t change.
A man’s project to work on is becoming the patriarch of the
home. Unfortunately, women may need two
different life plans – projects working on each day, for staying or leaving.
Q: How do you set
boundaries without pushing them into hiding and secrecy?
Maurice rephrased question: How can I behave in such a way
that I can make sure that another person behaves in such a way?
A: JS quote…Teach
them correct principles, and let them govern themselves.
You don’t choose your behavior because you are wanting him
to respond in certain way.
Don’t use reaction based behaviors. This is why it is so important for women to
have time away. We want to do brother of Jared thing at some point, but want to
empty brain, with reading etc to clear head and let wisdom into brain before we
start to ask questions. So before
thinking about concerns or questions, let true principles flow into your mind
before you start asking questions. As
Maurice spends listening or reading, the correct principles begin to come to
mind re: what to say, how to react, or what to do. As correct principles, they are not based on how someone will
respond. Prophets don’t shy away so
that it doesn’t make people mad. Christ stood by truth. Women need to do same thing.
Whether a man chooses hiding and secrecy is up to them. A man in full recovery sounds like: As a
woman starts to draw line in sand (previously known as boundaries), a man
should notice before anything is even said.
Then, “What’s on your mind, in your heart, what’s going on?” asked with
sincere inquiry, without being challenging.
If he knows something difficult is coming, he should use duct tape, tape
self down, and be in superman mode…and only say “let me see if I understand
what you are saying,” and clarify. Then
takes notebook, takes to God, or man trainers.
“Thanks for showing me leak in boat, I’m going to go to God to figure
out plan. Let me know if you see a difference in a week.”
If man wants privacy, then he shouldn’t expect to get into a
woman’s private parts.
Jennifer: It takes working recovery. It is information if
they aren’t doing it. It does work when they are working recovery.
Kara has experience with husband in both modes – recovery,
and non-recovery.
Q to Kara: What to watch for? She has seen him go back and
forth. Before they get it right all of
the time, they may only get it right some of the time.
A: Kara: When started Men of Moroni, husband thought it was
dumbest thing ever. Kara was wife that made appts. guided him etc. When stopped doing this, and completely
withdrew, he started doing on his own and changing. When he is doing it right – she is not sure if it is real…and may
need a sledgehammer to see if foundation is real. Last night asked “is this how you really feel, did I get this
right? I think this is so traumatizing because women are taught that it should
be beautiful and pure, and it makes them question who they are, and if
everything they’ve been taught is real”
Just him coming and asking this, and apologizing for ever making me feel
this way. My husband who never cared
about my feelings, is now trying to understand me as a woman and apologizing.
Men of Moroni going every week, doing man training power goals, he lived
downstairs, I lived upstairs. I could
sense difference in him through conversations, and took several months before inviting
him back up the stairs.
Maurice: We are telling men they are the greatest ones of
this generation. Women thinking this isn’t very good. Men think – “why are expectations so high? Why can’t I be
mediocre sometimes?” How coach works
with hs. athlete, vs. professional. My
wife would say, “cool good job, going to be awesome when you can pole vault
super high…it helps keep me driven to learn about being patriarch. You’ve made
great progress. I’m so excited to see you when you can get there.”
Kara: One of most poignant conversations we’ve ever had was;
“I know you are capable of being better man. It is in there. Go find trainers,
and find it.” Went hands off, and he
found it.
Maurice: Ladies, please document and record tone and style
of this. It pushes men off fence. Some
collapse and fall apart, but most men will rise up to it. I was under impression you didn’t believe in
me. When wife said that to me, it is
seared in me.
Jenn adds: This isn’t an argument, “I just want you to know
this.” Ends it there.
Maurice: Mom was mother of 9 boys, as more kids showed up,
we would run to mom with our problems, but during teen years, she would say
“You are a smart boy, you can figure it out yourself”. She said 1,000 times
because she was trying to take care of other things. Imagine saying that to your husband – you are smart, you will
figure it out, you know where the man trainers are. “Can we spend time in bedroom tonight?” “Probably not”. “Why not?” “You are a smart guy, you will figure
it out”.
Q: What if husband never asks those questions, ever. Poor
communication. Is it common for men to
realize how women feel easily? Is it
tough to get inside of woman’s heart?
A: Women need to
find how to maintain happiness in the meantime. Use things like “I have confidence you can continue to
learn. It looks like you haven’t
learned how to talk or explore with me, but I think you can figure it
out.” Some men are gun shy. Reassure that he isn’t doing because he
doesn’t have interest, more he is unsure, and so he flinches and retreats. It isn’t because of lack of caring, but lack
of skill. Encourage to keep pioneer
woman skills strong, but when he tries, note good effort, “I hope you’ll keep
getting better at it”
Do not apologize for anything unless you feel spiritually
inspired to do so. If you do it, hoping he will respond, then it is reaction
based thinking. Healthy relationship
like triangle of him, her, God with a safety line for her incase her husband
gets weird.
Husband needs to choose behavior on correct principles. It is nice if woman handles herself perfectly. We train men like rock climbers. If he is anchored to God tight, and woman is swinging all over place, and unpredictable. Men say, “it would be easier if she is stable,” get over, because goal is to be stable no matter what she is doing. It is always easier if one is doing things right. Get better for your sake, but not for him. Apologize if you sincerely feel that you’ve done something wrong. Apologize if woman thinks she has done something wrong, and feels inspired, but don’t apologize because it makes easier for him.
Husband needs to choose behavior on correct principles. It is nice if woman handles herself perfectly. We train men like rock climbers. If he is anchored to God tight, and woman is swinging all over place, and unpredictable. Men say, “it would be easier if she is stable,” get over, because goal is to be stable no matter what she is doing. It is always easier if one is doing things right. Get better for your sake, but not for him. Apologize if you sincerely feel that you’ve done something wrong. Apologize if woman thinks she has done something wrong, and feels inspired, but don’t apologize because it makes easier for him.
Kara: Read book by Wendy Watson Nielsen – part about
unrighteous dominion. Recognized that
this was attempt to make his situation mine.
Rather than just be happy with self, I tried to micromanage everything
in his life, and shut him down as a man, and he couldn’t do anything for
himself, it crippled him. Spirit
confirmed to her that she needed to step away and let him be a man and own his
own stuff. It was very freeing, and
very healing for him, allowing him to see she was taking ownership of her
actions.
Maurice: He didn’t respond well because she apologized, but
it was because of his own work.
Sometimes men don’t have an edifying response.
Q: Sleeping in separate rooms. At times he goes into victim mode. Why would he want to work
hard, when he thinks he has lost me, how do I get out of reactive mode?
Want to be more authentic, don’t want to just let him in and
forgive without seeing progress or change.
A: Blunt: it drives you nuts when man objectifies you. You
need to make sure you aren’t objectifying him. What do you think he does when
he is on his own? When he goes to mtn, or on a journey without a woman
presence, he might just be inspired to do something right. When he is alone
without a woman, he could call up God and be inspired.
Typical man in mtn conversation as follows: Going to talk
about wife and marriage. how messed up she is, ready for conversation with
God. Goes in and begins…God lets him
vent, then says, “So, you are having a hard time with my daughter. And she’s
difficult for you to live with. Today we aren’t going to talk about your wife,
but rather, my daughter.” It changes
the conversation. As any father would
say, “if you don’t like her, then go away.” I don’t have need for my daughter
to become awesome for you. She is awesome as she is, and for me. That usually stops guy – normal conversation
with man and God. Just go away.
Wait…can we talk about how to fix your daughter? Here’s a paper, write down everything wrong
with her, until you feel stupid. Stupid
conversation is: “My happiness is my priority, please change your daughter so
that my life is convenient, and I don’t have to change, but she does.” Most men have to spend time in
woodshed…lets talk this through first.
Ether 12:27 – if men come unto me. I will show weakness. Women don’t need to spell out in detail what
is wrong with man. Don’t want to be
near you, you go figure it out. Let God
do His work. If man not making effort
to connect with God, then be a little nervous.
But, you have to do something, because I can’t stay near you if you
aren’t going to at least try that. Then
if he isn’t ready to be in your presence then you should be on the phone with
God.
Can’t base your actions on how he is going to react. It isn’t my purpose in life to make you feel
like some woman likes you. You should
be psychologically stable before inviting someone else into your life. Who took care of you before you got a wife?
Or on mission, or during college? It is not woman’s job to reassure him. Reassurance should come after he behaves
well. In circle of life, man should
lead with preside, provide, protect.
Even 14 year old at a stake dance who leaves group and steps out to
invite girl to dance. She can turn her shoulder and smile to nurture. Don’t measure nurturing. Men learn from a woman’s reaction. Don’t
withhold nurturing if he behaves well.
Not necessarily bedroom, but appropriate – smile, pat on the shoulder.
Q: My husband is not in recovery, in process of divorce. In
re: apologizing, he continues to try and engage so that he feels better. As in
sending long text about forgiveness, and then stating she has turned him into
liar, narcissist, addict etc. How do I
not be affected by this, and not respond?
A: First if he talks that way, completely support divorcing
him. Simple solution is to mediator who
can facilitate communication regarding child. Take information transfer it, and
keep it at non-emotional, practical level.
If you are a woman who feels things, you will react to emotional
abuse. Is there a mediator for such
communication? Recommend a man as they won’t be as affected. Husband will find it pointless to rant to
brother or father or brother in law who gets it. Find someone to transfer clear information without the
emotions. Also use mediator for child
exchanges. A little complicated, but
possibly worth it in such a case.
Q: When disengage, he becomes more abusive and aggressive
trying to solicit engagement.
A: If keeps happening, always copy and paste abusive
messages into a document. Classified as
abuse, and court can order protective or non-contact order. Just so he can’t talk to you directly so
that all communication has to go through third party. Time to implement that.
Q: Ever a time when it is appropriate for a woman to teach a
man? Thought about role of woman as a nurturer – teaching is part of that.
A: Yes, but generally not in the early stages. “If he isn’t taking you seriously, don’t
talk”
Maurice can sit across from wife, and be ready to learn.
Because of communication errors, Satan’s tetris, etc. M. has noticed increase in frequency of attacks from Satan when
wife is around is astounding. She is “flinchy” around M. because when he is in
a bad zone, he can be “unpleasant”. When a man is receiving info in edifying way – love for woman to
teach. Man can’t tell what a woman is
experiencing or thinking. Man trainers have learned to listen and understand a
little more. General Authorities have
listened, - God gets it, Holy Ghost gets it, they understand women. Men train men how to listen to women in
edifying way.
Yes, in end, some of the fine tuning has to be done by a
woman.
Men need polishing and smoothing by women.
Q: How do I handle betrayal? I don’t care or want to know
about more disclosure, but don’t want husband carrying around all of the other
stuff that hasn’t been disclosed.
A: Personal
inventory – step four is more of a purpose to relieve and disclose all to
God. Rather than him wanting to tell
something he didn’t tell about 4 years ago. Stop skip to end, see how it
ends. He acknowledged something
undisclosed, then see how he ended it.
Q: Do I ask for disclosure or wait for it to come out on
own.
A: Wait.
Q: How do I not read junk in the middle?
Jennifer – some women need to handle it and need to
know. Some women need so that they can
heal and move forward. Not always clear
cut, don’t read it. With man journals,
talking about their battles – this happened, and this is what I did, or
realized. It gives insight to what he
is doing, what his plan of action is.
A: Make sure not reading from curiosity. Is it going to make
anything better if I know more information? It is case by case. Always stop,
retreat, and then determine why you would continue reading, and ask, do I want
this in my head and will I be able to get it out?
Q: Husband is foggy, doesn’t get it. Side jobs, he is in
apartments alone with women. Discussing how I don’t want him with single women
alone doing side jobs. He doesn’t connect the dots, and understand why it would
trigger that it would be hard for me.
Is it helpful to say you are idiot, how do you not see this?
A: Boundary discussion from earlier. “If you choose to do that…then I will have
to react this way. I will have to
retreat farther away because of the lack of safety it creates for me.” Use if then statements.
Men of Moroni doesn’t teach marriage repair. Use Marriage Repair classes. Maintain
distance until he figures it out. “Smart
boy, you’ll figure it out – with sincerity, integrity, honesty.” Good idea to have a trusted friend preview
journal if concerned about what it contains – be discerning about who you allow
to read a husband’s writing. If you are
really scared, then use your therapist to preview to help you not be
traumatized.
You need to ask yourself, Is this something I need to
know? Check out your own feelings when you begin to read it. If you are having
trauma, you don't have to read it. You can skip to the bottom to see where he
is at now, or what he did about it without having graphic details in your head.
It's a personal decision on how much you can handle.
Q: To get to marriage repair workshop, SofHoutreach@gmail.com
Q: Best to do both Men of Moroni and marriage workshops
simultaneous. $45 a week +3 hours of
training a week is a huge value for the $.