Healing With Worth : Q&A with Maurice Harker 6/27/16

Q&A Session with Maurice Harker & Jennifer Johnson June 26, 2016

Q: Husband had high sex drive at marriage. As grew deeper into addiction it began to wane and became a red flag for what was going on. At first I thought he was having an affair, as he didn’t want intimacy. Found out about addiction. Before, in times of sobriety, he was more attentive and intimate and had a higher desire. It has always been a red flag that something wasn’t going right or he wasn’t making the best choices. Now since starting MOM, don’t think he is fully working recovery or changing mindset, but this weekend he disclosed he had been actively looking for ways to get around barriers. He says he hasn’t acted out, but he has had zero drive. Is this a red flag? I’m not sure how hard to push this. It is hard that as other women talk about how they’ve set these boundaries.

A: There are men who swing the pendulum the other way, and sometimes when they are in recovery, or aren’t sure how to use their sexuality, they shut it off, they might not be acting out. Express compassion for the confusing dynamic that this can be. It isn’t uncommon for them to be in this phase of a partially recovered guy. It’s like a yo-yo, you get yanked around all over the place.

First thing I’d like to emphasize, is to create an independent psychological foundation so that you can make sure that you are okay, no matter where he is at. Women in their motivation to create and maintain quality relationships, will measure their stability or success, based on how well the relationship is going with mindsets such as, “I can tell I’m good at being a woman if my relationship is going in the right direction,” Don’t define yourself based on what he is doing/not doing or how well he is doing.

It’s paradoxical that in order to help a marriage heal, you have to be a little distanced for the sake of sanity. We use a rock climbing analogy. I try to diagram a relationship which is working for the patriarchal order, with God at the top, with man attached to him, and then the woman is attached to him. In a perfect world, the man is tightly strapped on making progress with a straight line, and the woman can hang on without being flung to the other side of the cliff. When the man is stable, sometimes when he swings to the right or left, you can imagine that if that behavior is happening and you are trying to hang on and climb, it might drive you nuts.

In one of our sacred ceremonies in our religion, women make a promise to follow their husbands as long as they are following God. We could change the wording of that a little bit, to ‘always rely on, and stay tight to the man as long as he stays tight to God’. There’s a phrase that isn’t stated, that if the man isn’t staying tight with God, then the woman is allowed and encouraged to maintain her own safety and connection and God. So think about it with rock climbing. If you have another line attached all the way to the top of the hill, between you and God, it doesn’t matter on if the man is slipping or falling. When in doubt only rely on the rope which you have tied to the top of the hill.

Follow up Q: This is such an important part of a healthy marriage. Sometimes I feel a lot more solid. He thinks it is because of the suppression of everything. I don’t get it, like, “why don’t you want to be with me?” I don’t know if it is a red flag or if we need counseling or medical help, as it is such a big thorn in our relationship right now.

A: There’s a wide range of the role physical intimacy for women in relationships. Sometimes it is symbolic of the relationship, and sometimes it is more relevant for some than for others. Because for you, this is very important and this is a quicksand for him. He’s not going to be able to explain his own sexuality accurately any time soon. A man going through sexual addiction recovery, isn’t going to be able to explain it. It could be because he is trying to resist it, or do something new. Sometimes he is trying different things every 4-6 hours. And you may get whiplash.

Q: How long?
A: First they get a handle on the actual behavior. The mathematical equation is one month for every year it was a problem. It is not fair. Not fair that you are attached to someone with this issue. That’s the scientific answer. But God can create miracles and if he chooses it may be shorter. My recommendation is to prep yourself for a month for every year that it was a problem.

You’ll only have to cross the plains as a pioneer woman, barefoot one time. For a couple of months. You’ll be fine after we chop your toes off, and you may have to bury children along the way.

It can be a long time. That’s why we call it pioneer woman mode. Because it will be about as fun as sticking a stick in your eye every morning when you wake up. So sorry you are going through this. If he’s making some progress, that’s very hopeful.

Q: Compared to five years ago, it is great progress.

A: You can ask him, but guys in recovery, may misrepresent the truth.

Q: We just had a baby. Sex is off of the table for medical reasons. I feel like there’s a lot of distance that I don’t feel able to connect – like there’s a void only filled by sex. I feel like either one of us can’t feel love as we should, if it is part of a healthy marriage. Was worried that with Husband’s addiction that in his brain it would be “sex=love”.

A: Like some of you, there are many times when the physical part of a relationship is quality and can be relied upon. The amount or role of physical intimacy in a marriage or how much it is relied on is different in every case. Some couples go biking together as a main staple. In my marriage, complex conversations are a main staple for me and my wife and I’ve noticed that void.
It is important to be aware if it is a significant part, it is good to be aware if it won’t be there. When I think of the concept of avoiding intimacy before marriage, I understand that it is in hopes that other intimacies can be developed. Sometimes physical intimacy can be taken completely off of the table in a marriage due to medical circumstances. I would recommend in your case that you look for other opportunities to create other intimacies. Your dynamic may be different than other ladies here. This participants husband has been working for over a year, and for there to be some emphasis on the physical isn’t weird.
Q: When we have the sexuality, it enhances everything, but I want it to be on a healthy level.

A: Based on my interviews with you, like when you are dating, and you go to the park or library, to do something other than making out. Don’t be afraid to mess up the good things you have going on. When you’ve been married for a long time, (yesterday was my 23 anniversary), it is cool to see the inter-weavings of a whole bunch of intimacies.

Q: Last d day was in Feb. Before that H was very absent re: sexual intimacy. In about 6 mon. there’s only been one moment – back in Feb. He works 2 jobs, and is gone every night of the week, or in MOM, we are never together. 2 weeks ago he moved upstairs. He’s working MOM, I think he’s doing good. Hasn’t missed his goals. I’d like to start working on our marriage but he’s never here or around, and I’m not just going to have sex after all of this time to make that connection. What do I do?

A: Does he show any inclination towards wanting to connect psychologically or emotionally in any way?

Q: Sometimes when he rolls in the door late at night, sometimes he will start a conversation. I’m worried that there’s nothing inside of me. Like I’m shutting off.

A: Everything I’ve experienced about females in their bodies, is that they don’t shut off, they just go dormant. Think of a seed in an envelope in a garage that is dormant in with no light or moisture. Then you put it in the garden with moisture and sun. That is what will happen to you. When put in the right environment with sun, moisture etc. you’ll begin to grow, and come out of dormancy. The first thing to ask is, “Just so I know,” (as men can get excited about their progress, or they can become skittish).

I had a 17 year old who when I asked how he was doing with dating, said he wasn’t dating, as he was afraid of what he would do. It was never meant to be put in a can on a shelf and put away. Sex energy is like a high spirited horse – you need to learn how to walk next to it, how to stand beside it, ride it correctly without killing people or being afraid of it.. Many men who are in recovery are skittish and are afraid. They are afraid that if they allow their sexuality to resurface that it will cause problems. It is fair to warn you that It can be scary at first.

It can be that “I have it under control, but then I start to try and connect with my wife, and then I don’t know what to do with~~….” And then~~ it.” One good thing to recognize is that healthy sex chemistry is different from deviant sexual energy.

Any man that has been married for lengthy period of time can describe the difference between healthy vs. deviant sexual energy. Many women can also recognize this.

First check to see if he is healthy and ready to start working on your marriage.

Then~~First~~ let him know that you are interested.

Then start building time for it. Date nights. Baby sitters. Taking off time from work for a few hours. It may be tough to pay bills… if you have money to get by, plan a 4 hour date every other week, where the bedroom is not the goal. Leave room for it, but be careful though so there aren’t unfulfilled expectations. Probably don’t plan for bedroom activities for the first couple of dates.
I don’t recommend avoiding non touching, just non-sexual touching. I don’t recommend movies for the first few dates – make them interactive, but allowing for physical touching. Go someplace you can walk, talk, interact.

Q: I haven’t been the initiator because I feel it is part of his recovery – waiting on him to lead.. Do I continue to wait, or jump in there?

A: As long as you don’t do it in a mothering voice, say, “Hey I’d like to spend 4 hours with you”, don’t use mother, or medical tones or ‘we should.’ Just say,. I’d like to spend 4 hours together with you sometime soon.

Q: Like first dating again – totally nervous.~~Q: Nervous.~~

A: Reassure you that this is very~~Very~~ normal. Very much like a first date – that’s why it is called courtship.

Q: As far as boundaries go, my h likes to mark calendar the next morning so that he gets to bed meeting all of his goals. He writes in journal just before bed. On weekends he doesn’t get around to it. It isn’t intentional. Is this something that as recovery changes that can be adapted and done the next day or at what point am I giving too much leniency in a boundary? ~~, that they m~~

A: If you are having to adapt to a difference in the system, but it is consistent? Is whatever he is doing working? You don’t have to hold on to something that is a style issue, when he is adapting it to his methods successfully. The problem with an addict in early recovery is that they make adaptations that aren’t successful and they will make adjustments because they can’t stick to something for more than 2-3 days. But if his adjustments are working, then I would leave it alone.

Q: Regarding Pioneer Woman Mode, – I have family member who passed away, and I was told I would have an inheritance. Should I just tuck this away and not talk about it?

A: In your relationship, because he is working hard, and you are getting close together, I would openly talk about it, and ask if you can set it aside as a Pioneer Woman fund. To the men who are making progress, I ask “do you think your wives would be financially stable without you, if you die, don’t you want wife to have security? Duh? Yes. Well, wouldn’t you want them to have spiritual security too?” You can tell how well a guy is doing with addict mode if he doesn’t agree with that.

Q: I feel like I’ve been doing well with co-dependency in other relationships, but as I was out walking, I saw other women and thought, oh I really want that. How do I walk away from co-dependency?

A: That may not be co-dependent. When we have quality relationships in many places, it isn’t bad to have multiple desires, but you may not have time to invest and have them. Wanting is healthy. Falling apart is not.

Follow up Q:
For the calendar question – We have a boundary that we don’t share bed if he doesn’t do goals. Before he starts group, he marks calendar – even though I know he has done them. Is this problematic?

A: Not in your case. In the early stages, I want husbands to be strict about it. Later on we can move to spirit of law, but go back to the letter of law when things start to slip.

Q: My husband has been in the Men of Moroni program for two weeks. I find myself wanting to be closer to him. When he talks about getting pumped up from those meetings it is really sexy to me. However, I don’t want to just open that door to intimacy again. He will be moving in the day before our anniversary. How soon is too soon to be asking for check ins or things that give me better information? I know he can be good at doing things the right way, but the feeling can be off- he can still be in addict mode. I still don’t know what his phone looks like since we separated, I don’t know if I need that info, but don’t feel I’ve had full transparency yet. When is good time to start doing check in?

A: First of all, I want to celebrate. I want to refer back to the comment about women not staying dormant, and the seed, needing just a little sunlight and soil. Since he is only a few weeks in we don’t know if he has stability or if he is in the honeymoon stage. I never want a woman to withhold or resist because she is worried about the effect it will have on him. Don’t over complex it. Just be careful to recognize that everything may not be okay afterwards – a little kamikaze and risk taking – be aware of this beforehand. Plan on the next day being seriously messed up so anything you imagined isn’t as messed up. Women have a nice moment with husbands, and think it will continue the next day too. The next day will probably be a train wreck. Because there are so many pieces that are underdeveloped – he hasn’t created communication/transparency system with you. To be clear the MOM program is to train them to overcome their addiction. Time isn’t spent telling them how to fix their marriages.

We have a women’s marriage repair workshop 11-12 am Mondays. We are trying to get recordings out for those as well. If you aren’t sure about your role in marriage repair you can use this.

What you can do in this phase is ask, ‘is there anything you’d like to tell me about what you are learning and how you fix stuff?’ Make sure you don’t ask like a mother or accountability partner. More like a friend or girlfriend. One of the phrases I’m passing on is… “Hey, I’ve never been a guy before, so what is it like for you guys…what are you learning, how do you implement, will you please explain to me because I don’t get it?”

Take notes on what feels solid, and do a weather check on what he isn’t getting right or what he may still be clueless about. It feels like he has 5% figured out and 95% still clueless. Then you can know how much courage you may need in the bedroom and how much you may cry the next day. When there’s an opportunity for healthy physical intimacy, you don’t have to wait. If your body tells you that it is okay, then for that moment it may be okay for today.

Q: New to Worth and have only attended one group last week. We’ve been married 10 years. 8 mo ago he confessed that for the past 3 years he has had problem with porn and masturbation. I was totally shocked. I didn’t know about it at all – no signs, he was very busy with his med school residency. He’s gone all of the time, I have 4 little kids at home, 8 and under. He stopped a few months before he told me. He told me – I didn’t find it. I was devastated. We went to the Bishop, they took away his recommend. He is a routine person. In his mind he thinks he doesn’t need any therapy because in God’s eyes he has repented. He had problem as youth, then cleared it up and went on his mission, and then white knuckled for 8-10 years. I’m trying to explain to him that to e it is the same as infidelity but he doesn’t think he needs therapy or 12 step.

A: Very sad you are going through this. You are with very powerful and loving women. We put this together for you and women in such situations. You have therapists here, and many women here who have been through this. The therapists are very capable of helping you get through this.

I would thank him for making the progress in his personal development. I would then ask if this is the first time he has had a traumatized wife? If yes, then I would ask if he will please get training on how to help his wife get through this. There is no automatic process for them to figure out how to help wives. Men prefer the word training to therapy.

We have prepared the Marriage Repair workshop so that it is less expensive, and on Thursday night, he can attend from home via zoom. In those meetings, we will talk about the things a man needs to do to convince his wife that he is continuing to succeed against his addictive behavior, and to also help wife to not be in the dark.

Q: It is hard when he periodically tells me he is okay, or for me to ask.

A: We have a system specifically for the men that teaches them how to tell their wives how they are doing, not only through words.

Q: I’ve been a long time with this situation, 35 years, my D day was 3 years ago. I have a husband who is doing the marriage repair workshop, and the first time he did it, willingly and on his own, he took notes and told me all about how great it was. I was hopeful and scared about how I felt, that he was getting it, but I didn’t want to get my hopes up. He tricked me for quite a few years so I had idea that I just needed to let him tell me, and I expressed appreciation for him sharing. He has continued for 5-7 months or more, but he hasn’t said another word about it. I’m learning to not mother him (a side note, I was encouraged when speaking with Bishops to talk to him, and stay to help him and comfort and mother him – I was taught this and am learning differently now). So I’ve learned to back off and let him do it on his own. I’ve said something the last few times and he’s being lethargic, just waiting for me to heal. I will ask how is it going? He will just reply, “it’s good.” Finally, I asked “Did you learn anything or do you know everything?” I’ve asked him why he doesn’t speak up and ask questions in the workshop. I shared that I feel discouraged while he sits around and waits for me to heal. He feels he needs to be “patient” with me.
I told him I need a safe place, and that sex isn’t even on the list of what I want to do with him. I told him it isn’t safe for me. I told him that he has all of the tools and he is going to have to figure it out. I ask, are we wasting money on this? Do you only go because I’ve asked you?

The Bishop is helpful. He watched something on Netflix and with nudity while I was out of town. I asked if he watched something that was inappropriate. He said no. I said, I know you did. He continued to play the game. I went to Netflix and he admitted that yes, it was inappropriate.
So even with my encouragement, I suggested that maybe he needed to talk to the Bishop and let him know how it really is. The Bishop said it sounds like what you did wrong was to not tell her.

I have a strong testimony and this is weighing heavily on me. I’ve visited with my stake president. My husband had been peeking in windows – ever since he was a kid, and even on women in the ward. When the bishop found out and did nothing, I went to the stake president. He was active his whole life, and it has been 4 weeks and I haven’t heard back from the stake president.

A: When someone else’s behavior is hard to live with and they demonstrate non response or drag their feet, I would refer you back to one of the analogies we used earlier with the rope tied to God. You had some very important confrontations with him. But then you lost your dignity when you lost the conversation – when the confrontation was no longer helpful or productive. It wasn’t seeking information, but was more putting him in his place. As you shared this, I watched you and your demeanor changed, and you became frustrated and hurt.

When a woman is constantly placed into a place of invalidation, when he is just waiting for you to get your act together, we want to make sure that you don’t slip out of your sanity zone. When you have those questions spew out of you with such intensity, it means they’ve been hovering around for a while.

In your quiet time, you can craft an interaction where you can maintain confidence and dignity. Imagine there’s a video camera on you to be used for training for other women. We want strength and precision – I refer to a Samaurai – not weak or slow or a push over, but elegant and accurate in such a situation. Not because he deserves it. As with children – we need to rid ourselves of the mindset that “if they aren’t learning it is because I didn’t do it right, so I need to do it more loudly or intensely.”

If a guy isn’t going to figure it out with the Holy Ghost or the marriage repair classes, then he probably won’t receive it or learn it from the wife. We don’t want to become the kind of woman we wouldn’t like to see on a video, just to teach a man a lesson. You need to like your style and methods while he is still clueless. Take your confrontations and questions….”are you asking any questions, or things you want to learn, or you aren’t asking questions because you have learned everything”. I’ve had to practice those same questions – but learning how to change the tone and do it in a manner so that I still like myself afterwards. He still might be clueless afterwards and do several things wrong, but you can be proud of yourself in how you handle it. This is a common thing we teach our children…”I had to mis-behave because he misbehaved first” we don’t want to be reactionary. Don’t go down on the same ship he is drowning in. In your personal time please review how you are handling it. Give yourself time to get more wisdom. Sometimes the best confrontation is to pack a bag and quietly go away for a while, stating, “I hope you can work this out, and when you have, I hope that we can talk.”

A good way to measure, is if you start to misbehave because he is misbehaved.. You are justified in your feelings and your frustration. These are valid. Men will say…I behaved poorly because of something I was feeling. We don’t want women to say the same thing.

Q: I totally needed to hear that because I know who I am, and I don’t talk to, or act like that towards anyone. I needed to hear that “remember who you are and be that person no matter what he is doing” is detachment that I need to do then for safety. He thinks he needs to pull me closer because he thinks he is doing well. He has been catered to, and I’ve been taught to cater to him. It’s been too many years. I’ve been taught to hold my own, and cater to him. This is the first time that I’m able to have it be about me in all of these years. I know that this is wrong – and I can say “that didn’t work as it was all about him”. But I can say – now I’m mad because the niceness got me nowhere. I get that it did that to me. Remember, this isn’t you – get your composure back again. It is sad that I’m in this home and this is where we are. I don’t want to feel like things have not been made right, but I see it is important to hold my composure. It is a constant struggle. Thank you for reminding me of this and to take a few breaths and keep trying.

A: There is a place where the venting of emotion is appropriate during the healing process, but it is only safe and useful to do that when the man is initiating repair. If not, you are throwing your pearls before swine and wasting energy and misusing it in the wrong place or time. I don’t want you to share your feelings and have them completely invalidated and ignored.

Recording ended.